argument #5342
In chemistry class, my friend and i had, what ended up turning into a large academic debate. Should effort calculate towards a final grade?
I argued absolutely not. Effort is not quantifiable and is therefore rendered irrelevant to the GPA. She responds that that is precisely what's wrong with the study of math [??? huh] there is no account for what it takes to get to the right answer.
What??
This is the reason why mathematics is statistically 50 years ahead of the social sciences. If effort could be quantified by some ratio of time to energy then it would be a justifiable component to a cumulative grade...
Intelligence is not proven to be fully inherent and knowledge most certainly isn't. Effort must manifest into academic achievement or there is some profound link missing in the chain of causation. Therefore making effort expendable and wholly useless!!! It's not that if you study you don't do well [because you're dumb or incapable], it means your methodology of doing so is somehow miscalculated.
ugh.
ugh.
whatever.
just kind of infuriating..
i despise the affirimative action argument.
gonna be late... ciao.
I argued absolutely not. Effort is not quantifiable and is therefore rendered irrelevant to the GPA. She responds that that is precisely what's wrong with the study of math [??? huh] there is no account for what it takes to get to the right answer.
What??
This is the reason why mathematics is statistically 50 years ahead of the social sciences. If effort could be quantified by some ratio of time to energy then it would be a justifiable component to a cumulative grade...
Intelligence is not proven to be fully inherent and knowledge most certainly isn't. Effort must manifest into academic achievement or there is some profound link missing in the chain of causation. Therefore making effort expendable and wholly useless!!! It's not that if you study you don't do well [because you're dumb or incapable], it means your methodology of doing so is somehow miscalculated.
ugh.
ugh.
whatever.
just kind of infuriating..
i despise the affirimative action argument.
gonna be late... ciao.
posted by HindiK at 1:21 PM
16 Comments:
I cast a vote in favor of your side of the argument. Effort means ziltch in academic study. Progress wasn't made by effort but by results. If you can't produce results, get out of the field.
Effort must manifest into academic achievement or there is some profound link missing in the chain of causation.
what exactly is this "academic achievement" that you say legitimizes effort? who decides what an "academic acheivement" is? is it a 'great' paper? deemed so by whom?
is 'effort' ignored in mathematics? much of a doctoral thesis is an attempt at proving something, no? if the unfortunate mathematician has flaws in his method and his proof doesn't sky-rocket him to mathematician rock-stardom, is his work futile? i think not... others might pick up where he left off, reworking his proof, or incorporating a lemma or two into their own work. should he be awarded his doctorate or not?
understand that i'm not leveling a cornerstone-proof with a valiant attempt, only don't dismiss an effort so easily because it isn't 'quantifiable'. an attempt at something is an "academic achievement". it is a gain from point A to B. if there is no formula for calculation, it gets graded according to intuition.
lea i whole heartedly agree with you but i would not call that effort, i'd call that creative, critical and innovative thinking.
this was a specific argument. should the amount of time of study for an exam be taken into account when you get your grade. Of course the grade is not the indicator of all learning!!! However, in this university- gade based sub society it is the sole indicator of good work.
and you're right on the "who decides what is a great paper" theory. Hell, i argue in favor of Ebonics based writing material.
more later.
is 'effort' ignored in mathematics? much of a doctoral thesis is an attempt at proving something, no?
Did you just use the word proving?
The way you get there is through your effort, but the affort, or "attempt" as you call it, is judged by the results.
And Hindy, the sanction of Eboniks is much worse than rewarding effort. When I factor effort into a grade, there is at least a goal. You didn't get there, but you tried. The sanction of Eboniks is to surrender the goal. It's saying, not only don't you have to accomplish, but you don't have to try. Don't even make the effort- We like you as you are. (Shudder, shudder.)
yeah, we'll talk...
when i taught last year, i asked students to write how easy/moderate/difficult they found tests and how much time they studied. maybe i was just an unprofessional teacher, but it mattered to me... an correct answer is a corect answer, but at tally-up time at the end of the term, i definitely remembered some of those "12 hour" responses and was charitable.
Lea, I think you have to differentiate between college and high school. If you don't reward effort in HS, inevitably, kids who have a harder time will be discouraged from even trying. High school is about instilling a love for learning in kids, and we don't want to sacrifice that to performance.
College isn't about that anymore. College is about placing you in real jobs in the real world. In college we're not here to instill anything in the students. The students choose their courses by their callings and talents. If you choose to go to college and pay thousands of dollars for that voluntary education, you can be asked to perform. In the real world, you have to do, not try. Rewarding effort is just deception to the tenth degree, as the students won't know what'll hit them come graduation day.
i see your point, anon (you should choose another name lest you be confused with the Anonymous of Bad Karma from last may/june, who seems to be rearing his/her head once again).
no doubt the pains/liberties you take educating yunguns is different with college students. i'm not saying i would be so charitable with the latter (though maybe i might be). hindy, what is "creative, innovative thinking" if not a method of attempt. a genuine effort will nearly always lead to some type of achievement, a result. maybe it won't be the intended product, but an outcome, a result nonetheless. let's not dismiss this, because efforts and failures and bad results are stepping stones to progress (as sappy & cliché as that may sound). someone wrote earlier (maybe it was you- all these anons leave me befuddled) progress wasn't made by effort but by results. the two are connected. maybe no A for effort from what was once an F, but consideration, yes.
Yes, one anon here, aka Ishechad.
Just remember that the only way for failure to turn into succuess, is when it's called failure. For if it were called success, why go on?
Therefore, I am not suggesting that we shoot kids who get F's. Rather, give them an F if that's what they've earned, and then let them try a little harder next time.
Sorry for the time delay- i just finished teaching comic strip writing on fictional monsters [the Adventures of Qarrat Queen and Bat Boychik] were doing a unit on monster writing...
okay-
hold up a second honey-
I'm not into product production... education should not be about the conveyor belt of The Factory of Knowledge adn Absolute Information. That which you are calling 'effort' is a 'product'. It is an end result. don't you see? This is about a factor-able grade.
The problem with grading on 'effort' is a much deeper issue. Think about it, when you give a kid a grade for 'effort' there is something sorely lacking in either your pedagogical methodology or your student's learning skills. True learning should encourage all students and not simply 'reconcile' them to their shortcomings. No way Jose!!
I am anti-positivist. Everyone has different experiences and a different knowledge base and learning is a political phenomenon with its own message. However, we must still expect things from our students, we must demand quality work and most importantly teach them HOW TO DELIVER IT.
A kid who spends 45 hours studying for a tests, gets a C and is granted an A for 'effort' is being done a misfavor by the education system. He or she needs to sit down wiht the teacher and be taught what 'went wrong'. Why did you study all that time and get such a low grade? How are you studying? Where are you studying? And was the test to single minded in its approach- did it take into account all sorts of learners??
I still maintain my position on Eubonics [it has been 'legitimized' by the US Council of Linguistics as an entire dialect, if not language removed from 'Standard English' {which if you think about is only the dialect of the current power holders}].
i am a TANGENT. ;) lea- en route to the bibliotechque if you're still there. i need O2
'Standard English' {which if you think about is only the dialect of the current power holders}
You just had to, didn't you? I don't want to become an 'Anon of Bad Karma,' so I'll bow out of this discussion right about now.
well, in regard to this interesting discussion on grades for 'effort' the idea is this... those who do come to class and make contributions to discussion should be given some type of 'credit' for that. there is a major difference between the bump on a log student and the active participant. education is more than just numbers and 'learnin stuff'... it also involves your ability to demonstrate the ability to apply what you've learned for the betterment of the in-class discussion. in my grading schematic, students who are 'bumps on logs' get 15/20... students who make contributions get 17/20 and students who actively make the classroom discourse better for all on a regular basis get 19/20 (no 20/20 cause nobody's perfect except me, the guy lecturing in front of the class ;)
well professor joe, that for sure grants our little corner A+ throughout...even before we actually hand in our final paper :) no?
[i really do not want to get involved with this conversation because my sick discriminating superiority complex- yes hind, i know they are rooted by inferiority complex- would say that if you put the effort in and actually studied and applied your knowledge then damn you if you could not perform on the test..however, my softer side understand the learning-performance curve, and some information does get lost in the synapse on the way to the exam. which professor can decipher between pretensious babbling in class discussion and actually understanding the work? only black-and-white concrete performance is what determines your grade. it surprises me YOU neo-liberal tree-hugger hind think this way and agree with conservative rigid letters attesting to your performance. i hate those liberal ass profs who create their own grade system and means to fit everyone on the spectrum into their grading book. but you, hindy, this seems contrast to most further opinions. i dunno]
so what hindy's essentially saying is that, and brace yourselves, she is a big cutesy loser!!!! studying fancy words in a heathen atmosphere. words words words, the beauty of language, uhu...Ebonics. in other news, in my immediate family, we gurgle. unfortunately at this point in time, it has not yet been recognized for the wonder that it is, but hell, im not the one in power. one day in the distant future my aspiring dictator great-grandson will implement this pure form of english communication. till then, gsdrewwwerewewawdfdsa.
anon
actually children, believe it or not, i went to sleep, or at least attempted to, a tad early.
o k, let's clarify a spell.
IF THE GRADING SYSTEM WAS NOT BASED ON FACTORABLE COMPONENTS 'EFFORT' WOULD PLAY A STRONG ROLE IN A GRADE. HOWEVER, BEING THAT HTE GRADE IS BASED ON A MATHEMATICAL, SCIENTIFIC, POSITIVIST FORMULA [the curve is supposed to help ease the pressue off of that a bit] IT MUST BE CONSISTENT THROUGHOUT.
That's all i'm saying. Consistency. No rule bending for anyone. Do I agree with this approach for my own personal pedagogical philosophy? absolutely not. I think we should ditch grades altogether for EVERYBODY. [and i mean that, the stress hinders {and i'm sure some will argue adds competition and 'good pressure'} true learning, especially for kids]. So no, I don't agree with the intrinsic method. However, in college, once the method is affixed, why SHOULD someone be alotted extra points for 'effort'? Who measures 'effort'? Besides, who would want to be that person to ask for the 'easier' ride? Joe there is a huge difference in handing in papers, and being conscious in class than displaying 'effort'. That's just called getting credit for showing up [which is measurable data].
My friend and I resolved it [she has ADD and does have special test taking conditions] I'm going to study with her for the final. We studied together for the midterm and she realized that she needs to study in a quiet place and not on the train to school.
I'm not criticizing. And I'm certainly not judging. But rules can't change unless they are decidedly and collectively changed. I'll restate that better, rules SHOULD change, but the changes need to run much deeper, be more effective and demand a complete overhaul.
[in case no one figured it out yet, i am anti learning according to the said 'scientific method', positivist, 'banking model' education is probably the worst pedagogical catastrophe there is.]
and D-
May i suggest you read linguist David Crystal before getting all narse-d up? This dialectical power trip is true since the dawn of linguisitic time. Think Queen's English etc. etc.
and profess Joe- you must give us an A+H...you must give us an A+H.... ;)
and anon- i love the heathen lanugage world image. you pulled my two fields together beautifully. i may use that. ;)
there are no A+'s in college!!! Nobody gets an A+ except the lord himself. Ricky's poem was quite interesting. i read the responses to the in-class exercise and i must say many people actually had very good interpretations of the essay. i was impressed. one of the essays said, and i quote, 'the class is cool, everyone should get an A for participation, except the 3 annoying Jewish girls in the corner, they should get F's'... i couldnt stop laughing!
hahahaha hey professor joe... im sure it was god/bell atlantic who wrote that (the other guy in the class that talks) you know you're giving us all A+'s
Post a Comment
<< Home